I jumped in on the discussion with the following post:
Here are some Scriptures ... (from Article V of our church constitution - item "B" is omitted so we stay on track)
Marriage And Family
C. Polygamy, though mentioned in Scripture, was never sanctioned by God, and Scriptures indicate it is not the will of God. Genesis 2:21-24, 1 Kings 11:3-4,Matthew 19:4-6
D. Regardless of any edict of man and any vows of individuals and, whereas marriage as defined by the Word of God is between one man and one woman, unions between those of the same sex, or involving bisexual activity, or with another creature, or any combination of the foregoing, and any future innovation of man, is not deemed marriage in the sight of God, but an abomination to the shame of the image of God in man. Exodus 22:19, Leviticus 20:15, Acts 5:29, Romans 1:21-28, Galatians 5:19
E. Sexual fulfillment is to be only between husband and wife. 1 Corinthians 5:1, 1 Corinthian 6:18, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, 1 Thessalonians 4:3, 2 Timothy 2:22
F. No member of this fellowship shall perform, officiate, condone, encourage, or solemnize any union or actions described in paragraphs "B" to "E" in this section on Marriage and Family, nor anything contrary to paragraph "A" of the same. 2 Corinthians 6:14, Ephesians 5:3-12, Revelation 18:4
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The first to reply was a Roman Catholic poster whom I will call Frank. He wrote....
You know Pete, if same sex unions become the law of the land, I forsee the day when polygamists and polyandrists, among others will demand equal rights. The USA is on a very slippery slope if this happens.
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I agreed with the above statement.
Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.
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But, a little later, a young adult female poster, whom I will call Betty, wrote....
I remember watching the Ellen Degeneres show a couple weeks ago and she had announced that California would be excepting same-sex marriages, and that she and her longtime girlfriend would be tying the knot.
Marriage in my opinion is when two people love,respect,cherish,commited to each other enough to spend the rest of their lives with eachother, and it makes no difference to me if they're the same sex....everyone has the right to the pursuit of happiness. And if it's wrong?...well we're not the judge of that.
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Note from me: Note that the word "judge" is often entered into conversations about sex when a Christian presents the true Biblical view.
To Betty I replied...
Well, with that then you would agree the judges' decision in California should not stand - for they are people like you and me.
And again, - not judging - just telling what the Judge of all the earth says:
Genesis 2:24, Malachi 2:13-16, Matthew 19:5-6, 1 Corinthians 7:3, 1 Corinthians 7:39, Ephesians 5:31, Hebrews 13:4
Betty then asked ...
But Pete, if the judge's decision DOESN'T stand, then how will gay people even get the chance?
I really don't care if gay people can be married or not, but I don't think it's right that laws prevent them from even having a chance, you know? We're all human, why do some rules apply to certain people?
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My reply to Betty on that was...
Rules (and not just for marriage) apply to certain people because of the responsibility vested in the action they are undertaking.
I don't know if I should give an example apart from marriage because you know as well as I do a discussion will vear off on various tangents then. So, unless you do want another example, I'll stick with marriage.
Ok, I know very well that some judges might not be true Christians - or even believe in God for that matter - but the rules of God supercede the rules of man.
The Genesis passage given, and its context, indicates, among other things, that marriage is a 1.) a union between male and female, 2.) they become one flesh, 3.) this union affords the honor - and a sacred responsibility of - procreation.
Socially, a concern is that the institution of marriage in society's mind has been chipped away at over many decades. I plan to write an article on this some time.
If one would destroy a nation, destroying their social system would help.
Satan wants to not only destroy the USA, but all nations.
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Someone else then asked me a question. Let's call her Penny. Here is what she asked:
Pete,
There are plenty of couple consisting of a man and woman that cannot have a child. Does this mean they should not be able to marry because they cannot continue the species?
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My reply to Penny was...
No, of course not. The context of Genesis indicates it is an honor and solemn responsibility. God did command Adam and Eve to replenish the earth.
However, procreation, as inferred in John 1, is often decided by the will of man.
Also there were many women in the Bible history that were barren.
Also, God can, and has, healed those that were / are barren.
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Betty asked, ...
Pete, Genesis says you've got to procreate and become one flesh, so what if you get married and don't want kids? If you can break the 3rd rule, why can't you break the first rule?
I replied...
No, it does not. See my response to Penny. There's a passage in Deuteronomy 24:5, that indicates it is for sexual pleasure. Also please see the Song of Solomon. There are other passages along that line.
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Betty asked, ...
And how is allowing gay people to wed going to help destroy the USA?
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I replied....
It violates what God says. Sin enters into any nation, corrupts it, and it falls. That pattern (with other sins) occurred to Babylon, Edom, Israel, Judah and the list goes on.
We are no better than Babylon, Edom, Israel, and Judah.
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I had to be away from the computer for a bit and there was, of course, much discussion.
When I returned, there were a number of replies I needed to make.
Betty wrote...
Well doesn't Exodus contradict Genesis because it just said to become one flesh (e.i. reproduce) not just for fun.
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I replied....
No. Please read the passages involved. There is no contradiction. God never said the union of man and woman was solely for procreation.
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Betty wrote...
God created gay people, so he must go against what he says, too.
Tracy wrote...
God created the good and the bad.
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I replied...
You are both incorrect. God did not create homosexuals and bad (people). The Bible does indicate though if one decides to remain with their sin, there are principles already set forth that they are made worse. Hence, the wicked, unless they turn, are prepared for the day of judgment. (See Romans 1)
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Betty wrote ...
I believe each and everyone of us is "bad" in many ways.
I replied...
Yes, you are right, It's the sin nature of mankind. (Romans 3:10)
Tracy wrote... I think it just happens, nobody conceived the idea.
I would say the propensity to sin is certainly there. Without Christ we all tumble into it (any sin). But we still decide.
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A homosexual man had also been part of the discussion. I refuse to call homosexuals "gay" because "gay" is supposed to mean "happy" and not homosexual. Nevertheless, he, let's call him Harry, wrote...
Yes I chose to live my life as a gay man, but I didn't choose to be gay.
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I replied...
I would say that you did, but your choice, and not just your choice -- anybody - alcoholic, etc, is "encouraged" by our sin nature.
You might feel you had no choice, but please consider that before we come to Christ we are all somewhat "triple teamed against" so we stay away from God's principles. This triple team is satan, the world (society's attitude), and our sin nature.
We are body, soul and spirit. Without Christ, when younger, when are hormones are kicking in and occasionally there are imbalances we feel that sexual urge and desire to experiment - which might not be focused for reasons just mentioned on the opposite sex. That, in no way, means a person is homosexual, or was made to be homosexual.
The sexual urge is often messed up by the forces of the world and satan - homosexuals, bisexuals, pedophiles, bestiality etc.
Christ offers us the Way out not just from sexual sin, but every sin.
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Tracy wrote ...
Please note: sexuality is NOT just about sex and urges, it's who we are, it helps define us. God most certainly did create us all.Yes God created us all but He did not create us to be sinners.
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I replied...
Maybe you don't understand by what we mean as the sin nature.
When God created mankind He made them male and female. He declared them good.
Man sinned - that really messed him and his descendents (sp?) up.
As I wrote to Harry, all of us are tripled teamed from the time we are born: satan, the world attitude, and our sin nature inherited from Adam.
Our sense of our sexuality is often incorrectly defined by that triple team.
Yes we are born sinners. God has made the Way of escape through Jesus Christ. This is the choice for everyone of us. Either we stay a descendent of Adam, or switch over to Christ.
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Betty had series of questions and comments....
First, Homosexuals & "Bad" people shouldn't be used in the same context.
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My reply...
Why? Isn't everyone a sinner?
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Betty... God DID create gay people;Where do you find that in the Bible?
I replied...
All such sin is a generation of the sin nature from Adam. (Romans 3:10)
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Betty...
But people who are bad chose to be bad, and they know the difference between right and wrong and choose to do wrong things.
My reply...
Well, yes in a way, but understand every sinner's conscience is messed up until they come to Christ. So, some folk think that the sin they are doing is ok.
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Betty again....
Gay people are gay, simple as that, they didn't choose to be born that way, they are just living the lives they were given!! They're not bad because of that, the devil didn't "make them do it.
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My reply....
I did not put the blame completely on satan. The sin nature and world attitude comes into play. What gave them that way of life was not God, for they, like the rest of us, are descendents of Adam until we come to Christ.
Homosexuals are sinners just like anyone else. Christ, the Answer and Cure, Who loves them, will set them right as He mercifully would do for the alcoholic, liar, - or just the plain old average sinner.
Or for the person who used to worship satan. (Referring to myself)
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Betty wrote...
Well us in comparison to gorillas/monkeys (our closest mammal relatives?) God created them too, and they can be homosexual as well, so is the monkey a sinner if he was born that way?...the way God created him.
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I replied...
Well, without going off a tangent - they are not our relatives.
He created the animals, like man, good.
When Adam sinned, sinned entered the whole world including creation.
When Christ returns and His Kingdom fills the earth, the knowledge of His righteousness will fill the earth, so much so that the lion shall not attack a lamb.
We have the choice now to be part of that kingdom. We need to lose daddy Adam and come to Christ.
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Betty wrote...
I believe in God most definately, but the more I read what you're saying, the more I find it craaazzyyy. No offense.
---I replied ...
Aye. I understand.
I know I did not present Scriptures for those recent statements, so give me a mo, or two. But it's in there.
Christ can fix things in our individual lives. He'll fix the whole world when He physically returns (see an upcoming Bible GemLight next week - part 2 on Israel which gets fixed by Him).
Albeit, people will still have a choice at that time to accept or reject Him, though He will physically rule on earth!
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Betty asked...How is Christ going to "fix" what God created? And how do you feel about the theory of evolution?
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I replied...
The Bible indicates distinctive creation. When God made man, that was the only creature declared as being made a "living soul," and being made in His image and likeness.
Now, the "fix"! He will do so by the power of His Son Jesus Christ. The rod of Jesse so mentioned in Isaiah is Messiah - Christ. (Christ and Messiah mean the same thing. One is the Greek word, the other the Hebrew).
The problem:
Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
THE FIX!
Isaiah 11
1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice's den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
and
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
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Tracy wrote....
Jesus said he who believes in Him shall be saved- not heterosexuals who believe in Him.
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I replied...
According to the Bible believe means to commit (James 2:9, Luke 14:33 and many others)- totally - to Jesus. In so doing, one turns away from their sin whether it is homosexuality, drunkeness, whatever.
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Now, notice how Betty focuses in upon the anger of the Lord, as presented in the passage from Isaiah, and ignores the mercy of the Lord.
Betty...
Isaiah 11 ...and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
I don't understand how they would "slay" gay people. The God I believe in wouldn't.
In my opinion, I don't think they have anything to worry about except the same things we worry about (do not kill, steal, etc.)
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To this I replied...
Is that all you focused upon in that passage, the slaying of the wicked?
The slaying is not the fix I was referring to.
Read it again please.
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Tracy wrote...
. Ouch, well I guess there is NO hope for ANY of us then, for all the people I know that "commit" to Jesus, ie: are saved, STILL SIN. Again, we all need to improve.
. I replied...
.You missed the point.
.Those who are saved are transferred from Adam's race to the Kingdom of God's dear Son. Those who are saved are children of God, and He lovingly treats them as children training them the right way in Christ. (John 1:12, Colossians 1:13)
.So, the choice is stay on Adam's side or commit to Christ.
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Betty wrote....
Pete- you never answered my question about how you feel about the theory of evolution; and I read it, but that was the only part that struck me as "are you kidding me?"
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As you see above, I did answer her question.
So I replied, ...
Absolutely not true. I did answer your question.
The Bible indicates distinctive creation. When God made man, that was the only creature declared as being made a "living soul," and being made in His image and likeness.
How on earth does that come across as "are you kidding me?"
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Betty then wrote...
I didn't ask you what the Bible indicates...I asked your own personal opinion.
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I replied...
Christ is my life and my thoughts.
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Harry wrote ...
Gays were created that way by God.
I replied ...
From Romans 1:
21 For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves.
25 They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense for their error which was meet.
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Betty asked...
But don't you gather an opinion based on your own experiences?
I replied...
No, I try not to, but I try to bring everything under the examination of God's Word.
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Betty wrote ...
Don't get me wrong - I believe in God, but some of the things that have been posted I do not. You don't have to live by the book to live by the message.
I replied...
If you live by the true message of the Bible you will by the Bible for It's Author is in you.
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Betty wrote...
Pete, did God himself write the Bible? No. Humans did.
I replied...
Sorry you feel that way.
But the Bible Itself says...
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Jesus Himself said
Lu 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
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Betty wrote...
I feel that the Bible is supposed to be the word of God, but humans had to actually sit down and write it.
I replied...
Yes, you are right, except that the Holy Bible is the Word of God.
Anyhow, yes humans were used to write it. However, we see in the epistle of Peter it was directed by God (passage already given).
Also, 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
"Inspiration" in that verse is theopneustos - God breathed. Not mere human inspiration, but divine direction by the Holy Spirit.
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Later, Betty wrote ...
Pete, Harry has already stated that he has accepted Jesus Christ in his life, and he is active in Church and reads the Bible. I don't think he has to worry about God judging him for being gay. So, you actually believe him? That means Christ within him has sex with another man. Not true.
I replied...
Just because someone says they are born again does not mean it's true.
How can you believe him when he declared God commanded us to sacrifice (kill) our firstborn? How can you believe him?
Careful - there's people out there that would like to sell you a bridge!
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Arlene was part of the discussion and wrote...
just because you believe in God does not mean you live your life by God
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I replied...
Right! And that belief does not save....
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
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In the course of the discussion I pointed out the fact that sin did not enter into the world until Adam sinned. Betty had a question in regard to the time period of Paradise when sinned had not entered the world. She asked...
So if an ant decides to steal some bread from someones pantry, he would bring sin into the world? Just as I asked you about the monkeys who are born homosexual, you said something about mankind being the only things made in God's image. (?)
I replied...
Ok, 1 .neither the ant nor the ape are made in the image of God.
2. Because sin did not enter the world until Adam sinned, the ant and monkey would behave.
The only creature on earth made in the image of God was mankind.
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Betty also asked...
And since the ape/monkeys aren't made in the image of God, isn't it okay for them to be homosexual?Which, since we are talking about before the fall, we should ask
And since the ape/monkeys aren't made in the image of God, would it have beek okay for them to be homosexual (before the fall).
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I replied...
And the answer would be that He also made the apes male and female. it would not be okay for them to be homosexual. And before the fall, they would not deviate in that direction.
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As the thread was winding down, Brenda wrote...
God made man to be with a woman and a woman to be with a man.
Not a man be with a man. And a woman be with a woman.
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Betty then asked...
Who's to say God didn't come up with another idea?
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I replied...
Good question. Three factors here.
1- He is holy. (predominate moral attribute throughout the Bible to describe God)
2- Immutable (does not change) -Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
3- The Holy Bible, as directed by His Holy Spirit, is the complete revelation of the will of God for our needs today.
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From that, Betty asked, ....
1. Okay...He is holy, sooo what's that got to do with having another idea?
2. Maybe He just didn't change for the sons of Jacob?
3. What do gay people have to do with our needs today?
I replied...
Ok, on holy, first when He created mankind He created them male and female and said this was good, in fact decreed everything very good in Gen 1:31. In Gen we also see that he made a woman for the man.
In the NT, again that passage...
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, God said the same sex relationships we face today are wrong, He said it in the OT and NT. His holiness is an unmoveable and unchageable standard. which led to #2
#2 unchangeable - Yes, He said that to the sons of Jacob, but that does not mean He is unchangeable only for the sons of Jacob. A similar NT verse is Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
#3. What do homosexual people have to do with our needs today?
Because you and I and others are discussing if there should be same sex marriage. Going by the Holy Bible, we already have the answer, which is no.
In other words, the Word of God is sufficient to meet all our needs.
Like yesterday, I said Christ is to be the Standard, and the Holy Bible defines to us what that Standard is.
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At this point, the discussion with Betty turned to that of the age of accountability and salvation. Please pray for this poster and the others I dealt with. I have changed their names, but God knows who they are.
Remember to pray for Harry too
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Harry had also written this: Saints Sergius and Bacchus
Sergius and Bacchus's close relationship has led some modern commenters to believe they were lovers. The most popular evidence for this view is that the oldest text of their martyrology, in the Greek language, describes them as "erastai", or lovers. Historian's consider their relationship to be an example of an early Christian same sex marriage.
I replied,...
I God's eyes marriage is only between a man and a woman.
It does not matter what so-called saints and "Christians" have done, if Christ lives in you, you would do His works - you would live His Word.
The Word states
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
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